Discussion:
Argumentatatitivism
Peter Chattaway
2011-06-17 14:41:24 UTC
Permalink
http://isteve.blogspot.com/2011/06/argumentatatitivism.html

by Steve Sailer
Tuesday, June 14, 2011

Last night, I was reviewing baseball statistician Bill James's new book Popular Crime for TakiMag, and I typed in something like, "As a prose stylist, James is an outstanding argumentalist." Wait a minute, I wondered, is that a real word? Sure it is, I discovered. In German. I eventually tried "argumentativist," which sounds pretty ridiculous in how the word just keeps going on and on, but, yes, there were a bunch of articles on the philosophy of argumentativism as advocated by argumentativists.

Today, in fact, there's an article in the NYT on argumentativism.

Reason Seen More as Weapon Than Path to Truth

By PATRICIA COHEN

For centuries thinkers have assumed that the uniquely human capacity for reasoning has existed to let people reach beyond mere perception and reflex in the search for truth. Rationality allowed a solitary thinker to blaze a path to philosophical, moral and scientific enlightenment.

Now some researchers are suggesting that reason evolved for a completely different purpose: to win arguments. Rationality, by this yardstick (and irrationality too, but we’ll get to that) is nothing more or less than a servant of the hard-wired compulsion to triumph in the debating arena. According to this view, bias, lack of logic and other supposed flaws that pollute the stream of reason are instead social adaptations that enable one group to persuade (and defeat) another. Certitude works, however sharply it may depart from the truth.

The idea, labeled the argumentative theory of reasoning, is the brainchild of French cognitive social scientists, and it has stirred excited discussion (and appalled dissent) among philosophers, political scientists, educators and psychologists, some of whom say it offers profound insight into the way people think and behave. The Journal of Behavioral and Brain Sciences devoted its April issue to debates over the theory, with participants challenging everything from the definition of reason to the origins of verbal communication.

“Reasoning doesn’t have this function of helping us to get better beliefs and make better decisions,” said Hugo Mercier, who is a co-author of the journal article, with Dan Sperber. “It was a purely social phenomenon. It evolved to help us convince others and to be careful when others try to convince us.” Truth and accuracy were beside the point.

Indeed, Mr. Sperber, a member of the Jean-Nicod research institute in Paris, first developed a version of the theory in 2000 to explain why evolution did not make the manifold flaws in reasoning go the way of the prehensile tail and the four-legged stride. Looking at a large body of psychological research, Mr. Sperber wanted to figure out why people persisted in picking out evidence that supported their views and ignored the rest — what is known as confirmation bias — leading them to hold on to a belief doggedly in the face of overwhelming contrary evidence.

Other scholars have previously argued that reasoning and irrationality are both products of evolution. But they usually assume that the purpose of reasoning is to help an individual arrive at the truth, and that irrationality is a kink in that process, a sort of mental myopia. Gary F. Marcus, for example, a psychology professor at New York University and the author of “Kluge: The Haphazard Construction of the Human Mind,” says distortions in reasoning are unintended side effects of blind evolution. They are a result of the way that the brain, a Rube Goldberg mental contraption, processes memory. People are more likely to remember items they are familiar with, like their own beliefs, rather than those of others.

What is revolutionary about argumentative theory is that it presumes that since reason has a different purpose — to win over an opposing group — flawed reasoning is an adaptation in itself, useful for bolstering debating skills.

Mr. Mercier, a post-doctoral fellow at the University of Pennsylvania, contends that attempts to rid people of biases have failed because reasoning does exactly what it is supposed to do: help win an argument.

“People have been trying to reform something that works perfectly well,” he said, “as if they had decided that hands were made for walking and that everybody should be taught that.”

Imagine a prehistoric hunting party arguing over how best to approach the deer they've spotted. The deer isn't going to be influenced by the charisma of their arguments, so they have an incentive to come up with the best decision because they are hungry. On the other hand, the various participants also have their own special interests, short term (e.g., I want a strategy where I make the kill because I'll get a bigger slice or I want a lower risk strategy because I'm not that hungry) and long term (I want to win the argument because I want to build a reputation as a smart decision maker so I'll have political capital).

But keep in mind that arguing consumes times, energy, and scares away the deer. It's often better to minimize the number of decisionmakers in a tactical situation. So, it makes more sense to argue for fun in the evening, to spar for dominance verbally by demonstrating a quick wit in oral combat or explain a complicated plan when there's time for others to listen. And everybody has an incentive to listen in to figure out whose likely to make good decisions on the spot in the morning with life or death in the balance. You need to know who to trust.

On the other hand, making good decisions about how to catch deer is hard, so ambitious men have incentives to use arguments that philosophers would consider not cricket to persuade other men to follow them. And even if those arguments aren't objectively better at catching deer in isolation, they might be subjectively better at unifying the team, and thus, in the bigger picture, be objectively better at catching deer.

All this is pretty inevitable. What I think is bizarre is that the Ancient Greeks started treating argument not just as a sport, but as one with objective fair play rules for deciding who wins. Consider Zeno's Paradoxes that were brought to Athens by Parmenides and Zeno when Socrates was a young man: the arrow can't reach the target because it first must go 1/2 the distance, then 1/4 the distance, etc. I think in most times and places, Zeno would have eventually got himself punched in the face. But the Greeks thought it was important to figure out why he was wrong.
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2011-06-17 15:52:15 UTC
Permalink
So, tonight, do I see Thor...Or Green Lantern?


Thom
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Mike Findlay
2011-06-17 16:05:13 UTC
Permalink
Haven't seen GL, but based on its reviews and that I have seen Thor, I'd go with
Thor. I didn't think it was better than either Iron Man or the best comic book
movie, but I was very pleasantly surprised. It also grows on you. After seeing
it and thinking about seeing it I've come to appreciate it more. It is what a
comic book movie should be - fun and nothing about the movie gets in the way of
that.


The Detroit Free Press movie of GL was subtly brutal. Too much CGI and targeted
for the 10-14 boy crowd. I don't know about he targeting but from trailers I've
seen I'm inclined to think that is on the mark re the CGI.

And only 27% on Rotten Tomatoes. FWIW, its off my "in theater" list and I'll
wait for DVD/Netflix to see it. I am however going to see the X-Men movie
tomorrow. The weather is sooo #^%*(&@ hot down here there isn't much else to do
besides drink and watch tv, and the latter gets old quick. Wish I was in Austin
- I'd go to the DraftHouse Cinema and combine the two, (drinking and a movie).
And I'd even keep my cell phone in my pocket, (I do anyway, at least after the
previews are over).

Mike F.




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From: "nezmik-***@public.gmane.org" <nezmik-***@public.gmane.org>
To: dadl-ot-***@public.gmane.org
Sent: Fri, June 17, 2011 10:52:15 AM
Subject: [DADL-OT] Tough Choices...

So, tonight, do I see Thor...Or Green Lantern?


Thom
http://thomwade.wordpress.com/
http://www.cafepress.com/Thomwade
http://www.in-one-ear.com
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2011-06-17 16:26:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mike Findlay
- I'd go to the DraftHouse Cinema and combine the two, (drinking and a movie).
And I'd even keep my cell phone in my pocket, (I do anyway, at least after the
previews are over).
How do you record the movie if your cell phone is in your pocket??? ;)


Yeah...I kind of leaned towards Thor simply based on the fact that it is down to one showtime in my area. Obviously on it's way out. And the disparity between the Rotten Tomatoes (Thor is at about 77%). On the other hand, Ebert apparently liked GL more than Thor.


Thom
http://thomwade.wordpress.com/
http://www.cafepress.com/Thomwade
http://www.in-one-ear.com
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Johne Cook
2011-06-17 16:27:18 UTC
Permalink
Ditto everything Mike said.

Johne Cook
| http://raygunrevival.com | http://authorculture.blogspot.com |*
*
Post by Mike Findlay
Haven't seen GL, but based on its reviews and that I have seen Thor, I'd go with
Thor. I didn't think it was better than either Iron Man or the best comic book
movie, but I was very pleasantly surprised. It also grows on you. After seeing
it and thinking about seeing it I've come to appreciate it more. It is what a
comic book movie should be - fun and nothing about the movie gets in the way of
that.
The Detroit Free Press movie of GL was subtly brutal. Too much CGI and targeted
for the 10-14 boy crowd. I don't know about he targeting but from trailers I've
seen I'm inclined to think that is on the mark re the CGI.
And only 27% on Rotten Tomatoes. FWIW, its off my "in theater" list and I'll
wait for DVD/Netflix to see it. I am however going to see the X-Men movie
besides drink and watch tv, and the latter gets old quick. Wish I was in Austin
- I'd go to the DraftHouse Cinema and combine the two, (drinking and a movie).
And I'd even keep my cell phone in my pocket, (I do anyway, at least after the
previews are over).
Mike F.
________________________________
Sent: Fri, June 17, 2011 10:52:15 AM
Subject: [DADL-OT] Tough Choices...
So, tonight, do I see Thor...Or Green Lantern?
Thom
http://thomwade.wordpress.com/
http://www.cafepress.com/Thomwade
http://www.in-one-ear.com
_______________________________________
"I want a song to learn and sing, of a life requited."-Echo & the Bunnymen
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Peter T. Chattaway
2011-06-17 17:16:40 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mike Findlay
Haven't seen GL, but based on its reviews and that I have seen Thor, I'd
go with Thor.
Taste is taste, of course, but FWIW, I found Thor simultaneously too
mythic and too earthbound, but not very superheroic. Green Lantern (which
I have not yet seen) at least has a more explicitly sci-fi-ish cosmology.

Though I certainly expect the acting in Thor will be better than its
counterpart in Green Lantern.
Post by Mike Findlay
The Detroit Free Press movie of GL was subtly brutal. Too much CGI and
targeted for the 10-14 boy crowd.
I don't care about age; as long as it's targeted at people who actually
read the Green Lantern comics (as I used to do), I'm fine with that.

As for CGI... well, how else *could* you make a Green Lantern movie?
Post by Mike Findlay
And only 27% on Rotten Tomatoes.
It's got 40% at Metacritic, which tends to be a more reliable gauge of
critical opinion (for one thing it doesn't try to compress every review
into a simple thumb-up or thumb-down). But even so, what matters is not
the *quantity* of the reviews but the *quality* of the reviews.
Post by Mike Findlay
I am however going to see the X-Men movie tomorrow.
I liked it quite a bit, but then I wish more superhero movies were retro
period pieces (and I loved all the subtitled foreign-language dialogue).
I've always thought the James Bond movies should go back to taking place
in the '50s and '60s, when Ian Fleming wrote the books. :)
Post by Mike Findlay
And I'd even keep my cell phone in my pocket, (I do anyway, at least
after the previews are over).
You turn it on during the previews? Eep. For me, when the house lights
go down, *all* lights go down.
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John Crawford
2011-06-17 17:42:56 UTC
Permalink
Choice for me is easy. My work is taking us to see Green Lantern this
afternoon and picking up the ticket and snack costs!

John
Post by Peter T. Chattaway
Post by Mike Findlay
Haven't seen GL, but based on its reviews and that I have seen Thor, I'd
go with Thor.
Taste is taste, of course, but FWIW, I found Thor simultaneously too
mythic and too earthbound, but not very superheroic. Green Lantern (which
I have not yet seen) at least has a more explicitly sci-fi-ish cosmology.
Though I certainly expect the acting in Thor will be better than its
counterpart in Green Lantern.
Post by Mike Findlay
The Detroit Free Press movie of GL was subtly brutal. Too much CGI and
targeted for the 10-14 boy crowd.
I don't care about age; as long as it's targeted at people who actually
read the Green Lantern comics (as I used to do), I'm fine with that.
As for CGI... well, how else *could* you make a Green Lantern movie?
Post by Mike Findlay
And only 27% on Rotten Tomatoes.
It's got 40% at Metacritic, which tends to be a more reliable gauge of
critical opinion (for one thing it doesn't try to compress every review
into a simple thumb-up or thumb-down). But even so, what matters is not
the *quantity* of the reviews but the *quality* of the reviews.
Post by Mike Findlay
I am however going to see the X-Men movie tomorrow.
I liked it quite a bit, but then I wish more superhero movies were retro
period pieces (and I loved all the subtitled foreign-language dialogue).
I've always thought the James Bond movies should go back to taking place
in the '50s and '60s, when Ian Fleming wrote the books. :)
Post by Mike Findlay
And I'd even keep my cell phone in my pocket, (I do anyway, at least
after the previews are over).
You turn it on during the previews? Eep. For me, when the house lights
go down, *all* lights go down.
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Mike Findlay
2011-06-17 18:46:09 UTC
Permalink
Taste is taste, of course, but FWIW, I found Thor simultaneously too mythic and
too earthbound, but not very superheroic.<
I don't disagree that Thor was not especially superheroic. Thor and his family
came across more as aliens than the gods they are supposed to be. I realize
that doesn't disqualify you from superherodom, (Superman), but the way it played
out in the movie was that Thor felt mortal at times, without any super powers.
I guess he had been stripped of his powers by Odin but Thor didn't even seem to
realize that, which does stretch credulity I suppose.
I don't care about age; as long as it's targeted at people who actually read the
Green Lantern comics (as I used to do), I'm fine with that.<
There ya go. I never read them so I don't have the vested interest in it you
do.
As for CGI... well, how else *could* you make a Green Lantern movie?<
As Kurt Loder said:

"But the picture is slathered with so much CGI goop that at several points it’s
indistinguishable from a Saturday morning cartoon show. Very soon you start
wondering why you had to leave your living room to see it."

Of course I haven't seen the movie, but this jibes with the trailers I've seen.
You turn it on during the previews? Eep. For me, when the house lights go
down, *all* lights go down.<
Except the lights don't go down for previews.

Mike F.
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Karl Swenson
2011-06-17 19:02:14 UTC
Permalink
As for CGI... well, how else *could* you make a Green Lantern movie?<
As Kurt Loder said:

"But the picture is slathered with so much CGI goop that at several points it’s
indistinguishable from a Saturday morning cartoon show. Very soon you start
wondering why you had to leave your living room to see it."

Of course I haven't seen the movie, but this jibes with the trailers I've seen.

**what, is it speed racer level of CGI?
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Mike Findlay
2011-06-17 19:07:37 UTC
Permalink
Never saw speed race. Never will.

How could Emile Hirsch go from Into the Wild to Speed Racer I'll never
understand.


Mike F.




________________________________
From: Karl Swenson <***@gmail.com>
To: DADL (off topic) <dadl-***@thehood.us>
Sent: Fri, June 17, 2011 2:02:14 PM
Subject: Re: [DADL-OT] Tough Choices...
As for CGI... well, how else *could* you make a Green Lantern movie?<
As Kurt Loder said:

"But the picture is slathered with so much CGI goop that at several points it’s
indistinguishable from a Saturday morning cartoon show. Very soon you start
wondering why you had to leave your living room to see it."

Of course I haven't seen the movie, but this jibes with the trailers I've seen.

**what, is it speed racer level of CGI?
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Karl Swenson
2011-06-17 19:21:52 UTC
Permalink
If you were a fan of the cartoon it did work on some levels. They captured some of the feeling and look pretty well, and a couple of the casting choices were spot on.


-----Original Message-----
From: dadl-ot-***@thehood.us [mailto:dadl-ot-***@thehood.us] On Behalf Of Mike Findlay
Sent: Friday, June 17, 2011 12:08 PM
To: DADL (off topic)
Subject: Re: [DADL-OT] Tough Choices...

Never saw speed race. Never will.

How could Emile Hirsch go from Into the Wild to Speed Racer I'll never
understand.


Mike F.




________________________________
From: Karl Swenson <***@gmail.com>
To: DADL (off topic) <dadl-***@thehood.us>
Sent: Fri, June 17, 2011 2:02:14 PM
Subject: Re: [DADL-OT] Tough Choices...
As for CGI... well, how else *could* you make a Green Lantern movie?<
As Kurt Loder said:

"But the picture is slathered with so much CGI goop that at several points it’s indistinguishable from a Saturday morning cartoon show. Very soon you start wondering why you had to leave your living room to see it."

Of course I haven't seen the movie, but this jibes with the trailers I've seen.

**what, is it speed racer level of CGI?



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Mike Findlay
2011-06-17 19:24:22 UTC
Permalink
I much preferred Kimba the White Lion. ; - P

Mike F.
(showing my age)




________________________________
From: Karl Swenson <***@gmail.com>
To: DADL (off topic) <dadl-***@thehood.us>
Sent: Fri, June 17, 2011 2:21:52 PM
Subject: Re: [DADL-OT] Tough Choices...

If you were a fan of the cartoon it did work on some levels. They captured some
of the feeling and look pretty well, and a couple of the casting choices were
spot on.


-----Original Message-----
From: dadl-ot-***@thehood.us [mailto:dadl-ot-***@thehood.us] On Behalf
Of Mike Findlay
Sent: Friday, June 17, 2011 12:08 PM
To: DADL (off topic)
Subject: Re: [DADL-OT] Tough Choices...

Never saw speed race. Never will.

How could Emile Hirsch go from Into the Wild to Speed Racer I'll never
understand.


Mike F.




________________________________
From: Karl Swenson <***@gmail.com>
To: DADL (off topic) <dadl-***@thehood.us>
Sent: Fri, June 17, 2011 2:02:14 PM
Subject: Re: [DADL-OT] Tough Choices...
As for CGI... well, how else *could* you make a Green Lantern movie?<
As Kurt Loder said:

"But the picture is slathered with so much CGI goop that at several points it’s
indistinguishable from a Saturday morning cartoon show. Very soon you start
wondering why you had to leave your living room to see it."

Of course I haven't seen the movie, but this jibes with the trailers I've seen.

**what, is it speed racer level of CGI?



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Karl Swenson
2011-06-17 19:25:50 UTC
Permalink
Marine Boy?

-----Original Message-----
From: dadl-ot-***@thehood.us [mailto:dadl-ot-***@thehood.us] On Behalf Of Mike Findlay
Sent: Friday, June 17, 2011 12:24 PM
To: DADL (off topic)
Subject: Re: [DADL-OT] Tough Choices...

I much preferred Kimba the White Lion. ; - P

Mike F.
(showing my age)




________________________________
From: Karl Swenson <***@gmail.com>
To: DADL (off topic) <dadl-***@thehood.us>
Sent: Fri, June 17, 2011 2:21:52 PM
Subject: Re: [DADL-OT] Tough Choices...

If you were a fan of the cartoon it did work on some levels. They captured some of the feeling and look pretty well, and a couple of the casting choices were spot on.


-----Original Message-----
From: dadl-ot-***@thehood.us [mailto:dadl-ot-***@thehood.us] On Behalf Of Mike Findlay
Sent: Friday, June 17, 2011 12:08 PM
To: DADL (off topic)
Subject: Re: [DADL-OT] Tough Choices...

Never saw speed race. Never will.

How could Emile Hirsch go from Into the Wild to Speed Racer I'll never
understand.


Mike F.




________________________________
From: Karl Swenson <***@gmail.com>
To: DADL (off topic) <dadl-***@thehood.us>
Sent: Fri, June 17, 2011 2:02:14 PM
Subject: Re: [DADL-OT] Tough Choices...
As for CGI... well, how else *could* you make a Green Lantern movie?<
As Kurt Loder said:

"But the picture is slathered with so much CGI goop that at several points it’s indistinguishable from a Saturday morning cartoon show. Very soon you start wondering why you had to leave your living room to see it."

Of course I haven't seen the movie, but this jibes with the trailers I've seen.

**what, is it speed racer level of CGI?



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n***@public.gmane.org
2011-06-17 19:29:13 UTC
Permalink
I was more of a Herculoids kid.


Thom
http://thomwade.wordpress.com/
http://www.cafepress.com/Thomwade
http://www.in-one-ear.com
_______________________________________
"I want a song to learn and sing, of a life requited."-Echo & the Bunnymen



-----Original Message-----
From: Karl Swenson <***@gmail.com>
To: 'DADL (off topic)' <dadl-***@thehood.us>
Sent: Fri, Jun 17, 2011 2:25 pm
Subject: Re: [DADL-OT] Tough Choices...


Marine Boy?

-----Original Message-----
From: dadl-ot-***@thehood.us [mailto:dadl-ot-***@thehood.us] On Behalf
Of Mike Findlay
Sent: Friday, June 17, 2011 12:24 PM
To: DADL (off topic)
Subject: Re: [DADL-OT] Tough Choices...

I much preferred Kimba the White Lion. ; - P

Mike F.
(showing my age)




________________________________
From: Karl Swenson <***@gmail.com>
To: DADL (off topic) <dadl-***@thehood.us>
Sent: Fri, June 17, 2011 2:21:52 PM
Subject: Re: [DADL-OT] Tough Choices...

If you were a fan of the cartoon it did work on some levels. They captured some
of the feeling and look pretty well, and a couple of the casting choices were
spot on.


-----Original Message-----
From: dadl-ot-***@thehood.us [mailto:dadl-ot-***@thehood.us] On Behalf
Of Mike Findlay
Sent: Friday, June 17, 2011 12:08 PM
To: DADL (off topic)
Subject: Re: [DADL-OT] Tough Choices...

Never saw speed race. Never will.

How could Emile Hirsch go from Into the Wild to Speed Racer I'll never
understand.


Mike F.




________________________________
From: Karl Swenson <***@gmail.com>
To: DADL (off topic) <dadl-***@thehood.us>
Sent: Fri, June 17, 2011 2:02:14 PM
Subject: Re: [DADL-OT] Tough Choices...
As for CGI... well, how else *could* you make a Green Lantern movie?<
As Kurt Loder said:

"But the picture is slathered with so much CGI goop that at several points it’s
indistinguishable from a Saturday morning cartoon show. Very soon you start
wondering why you had to leave your living room to see it."

Of course I haven't seen the movie, but this jibes with the trailers I've seen.

**what, is it speed racer level of CGI?



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Mike Findlay
2011-06-17 19:39:01 UTC
Permalink
Don't remember that one. But I remember the one with the cartoons w/ live
action mouths stuck in. Clutch Cargo.

How about Johnny Quest?

How about the Banana Splits? (that had the live action mini show with Chongo -
"Oh Oh Chongo!"

H.R. Puffenstuff?






________________________________
From: Karl Swenson <***@gmail.com>
To: DADL (off topic) <dadl-***@thehood.us>
Sent: Fri, June 17, 2011 2:25:50 PM
Subject: Re: [DADL-OT] Tough Choices...

Marine Boy?

-----Original Message-----
From: dadl-ot-***@thehood.us [mailto:dadl-ot-***@thehood.us] On Behalf
Of Mike Findlay
Sent: Friday, June 17, 2011 12:24 PM
To: DADL (off topic)
Subject: Re: [DADL-OT] Tough Choices...

I much preferred Kimba the White Lion. ; - P

Mike F.
(showing my age)




________________________________
From: Karl Swenson <***@gmail.com>
To: DADL (off topic) <dadl-***@thehood.us>
Sent: Fri, June 17, 2011 2:21:52 PM
Subject: Re: [DADL-OT] Tough Choices...

If you were a fan of the cartoon it did work on some levels. They captured some
of the feeling and look pretty well, and a couple of the casting choices were
spot on.


-----Original Message-----
From: dadl-ot-***@thehood.us [mailto:dadl-ot-***@thehood.us] On Behalf
Of Mike Findlay
Sent: Friday, June 17, 2011 12:08 PM
To: DADL (off topic)
Subject: Re: [DADL-OT] Tough Choices...

Never saw speed race. Never will.

How could Emile Hirsch go from Into the Wild to Speed Racer I'll never
understand.


Mike F.




________________________________
From: Karl Swenson <***@gmail.com>
To: DADL (off topic) <dadl-***@thehood.us>
Sent: Fri, June 17, 2011 2:02:14 PM
Subject: Re: [DADL-OT] Tough Choices...
As for CGI... well, how else *could* you make a Green Lantern movie?<
As Kurt Loder said:

"But the picture is slathered with so much CGI goop that at several points it’s
indistinguishable from a Saturday morning cartoon show. Very soon you start
wondering why you had to leave your living room to see it."

Of course I haven't seen the movie, but this jibes with the trailers I've seen.

**what, is it speed racer level of CGI?



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Lance McLain
2011-06-17 19:23:45 UTC
Permalink
I know I stand alone here, but I really dig Speed Racer. The graphics are outstanding.

Sent from my iPhone
Post by Mike Findlay
Never saw speed race. Never will.
How could Emile Hirsch go from Into the Wild to Speed Racer I'll never
understand.
Mike F.
________________________________
Sent: Fri, June 17, 2011 2:02:14 PM
Subject: Re: [DADL-OT] Tough Choices...
As for CGI... well, how else *could* you make a Green Lantern movie?<
"But the picture is slathered with so much CGI goop that at several points it’s
indistinguishable from a Saturday morning cartoon show. Very soon you start
wondering why you had to leave your living room to see it."
Of course I haven't seen the movie, but this jibes with the trailers I've seen.
**what, is it speed racer level of CGI?
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n***@public.gmane.org
2011-06-17 19:28:39 UTC
Permalink
Post by Lance McLain
I know I stand alone here, but I really dig Speed Racer. The graphics are outstanding.
No, I am on your team, Lance. But I like movies that have a very specific sense of their visual style. I also liked 300, Sin City and Watchmen, because of their visual flair.


Thom
http://thomwade.wordpress.com/
http://www.cafepress.com/Thomwade
http://www.in-one-ear.com
_______________________________________
"I want a song to learn and sing, of a life requited."-Echo & the Bunnymen



-----Original Message-----
From: Lance McLain <***@lwmclain.com>
To: DADL (off topic) <dadl-***@thehood.us>
Sent: Fri, Jun 17, 2011 2:23 pm
Subject: Re: [DADL-OT] Tough Choices...


I know I stand alone here, but I really dig Speed Racer. The graphics are
outstanding.

Sent from my iPhone
Post by Lance McLain
Never saw speed race. Never will.
How could Emile Hirsch go from Into the Wild to Speed Racer I'll never
understand.
Mike F.
________________________________
Sent: Fri, June 17, 2011 2:02:14 PM
Subject: Re: [DADL-OT] Tough Choices...
As for CGI... well, how else *could* you make a Green Lantern movie?<
"But the picture is slathered with so much CGI goop that at several points it’s
indistinguishable from a Saturday morning cartoon show. Very soon you start
wondering why you had to leave your living room to see it."
Of course I haven't seen the movie, but this jibes with the trailers I've seen.
**what, is it speed racer level of CGI?
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Peter T. Chattaway
2011-06-17 22:09:41 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mike Findlay
How could Emile Hirsch go from Into the Wild to Speed Racer I'll never
understand.
Cuz he's a professional actor! And they were both good movies, as I
recall.
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Mike Findlay
2011-06-17 22:14:58 UTC
Permalink
Into the Wild was excellent. Speed Racer not so much.

It would be like seeing DeNiro go from the Godfather to some schlocky comedy.
Oh wait............

Mike F.




________________________________
From: Peter T. Chattaway <petert-LOVM4QxV+tDq6eQxt3vRmLDks+cytr/***@public.gmane.org>
To: DADL (off topic) <dadl-ot-***@public.gmane.org>
Sent: Fri, June 17, 2011 5:09:41 PM
Subject: Re: [DADL-OT] Tough Choices...
Post by Mike Findlay
How could Emile Hirsch go from Into the Wild to Speed Racer I'll never
understand.
Cuz he's a professional actor! And they were both good movies, as I recall.

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Peter T. Chattaway
2011-06-17 22:08:54 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mike Findlay
I don't disagree that Thor was not especially superheroic. Thor and his
family came across more as aliens than the gods they are supposed to be.
I realize that doesn't disqualify you from superherodom, (Superman) . . .
Well, part of the problem here was that the movie couldn't quite decide if
Thor and his family were living on another planet or in, y'know, heaven
(or something similarly mystical/religious/mythical).

I do appreciate what they were trying to do, especially given that they
had to make everything "fit" with tech-based superheroes like Iron Man
(and science-experiment superheroes like Hulk and Captain America), but if
we're talking comparative comic-book mythologies, I think Green Lantern's
is at least more consistent, on this level. (Plus, as you note, in the
comics, Green Lantern lives in a world where the dominant superhero, i.e.
Superman, is *already* an alien from another planet... whereas Thor, in
the movies, has to fit into a world of primarily earthbound heroes.)
Post by Mike Findlay
"But the picture is slathered with so much CGI goop that at several
points it’s indistinguishable from a Saturday morning cartoon show.
Very soon you start wondering why you had to leave your living room to
see it."
Yeah, well, people said the same thing after seeing the trailers for
Avatar, too. (Remember all those Delgo mash-ups?)
Post by Mike Findlay
Post by Peter T. Chattaway
You turn it on during the previews? Eep. For me, when the house
lights go down, *all* lights go down.<
Except the lights don't go down for previews.
Really? Not even a little, when the projector starts rolling?
Mike Findlay
2011-06-17 22:26:49 UTC
Permalink
I do appreciate what they were trying to do, especially given that they had to
make everything "fit" with tech-based superheroes like Iron Man (and
science-experiment superheroes like Hulk and Captain America), but if we're
talking comparative comic-book mythologies, I think Green Lantern's is at least
more consistent, on this level. (Plus, as you note, in the comics, Green
Lantern lives in a world where the dominant superhero, i.e. Superman, is
*already* an alien from another planet... whereas Thor, in the movies, has to
fit into a world of primarily earthbound heroes.)<
I still think Thor held up well. The story, performances, action, etc. well
compensated for any minor inconsistencies there might have been.
"But the picture is slathered with so much CGI goop that at several points it’s
indistinguishable from a Saturday morning cartoon show. Very soon you start
wondering why you had to leave your living room to see it."
Yeah, well, people said the same thing after seeing the trailers for Avatar,
too. (Remember all those Delgo mash-ups?)<
For me using Avatar as a defense of any movie, other than in a negative light,
doesn't get far. I acknowledge I didn't see it in the theater or 3d but I
didn't make it through the whole thing. The story was just so cliche to the
point of being dumb.
Except the lights don't go down for previews.
Really? Not even a little, when the projector starts rolling?<
Been to theaters in MI and Texas and as a rule the lighting, as far as I can
tell, (I was just noticing it again last weekend seeing Super 8 and complaining
that I hoped they turned the lights down for the feature), is the same between
movies as when the trailers are going. It doesn't go dark until the feature
film starts rolling and even then they go down to slow for my liking. I think
it may come from the ads, in slide form, they show before the trailers start -
theaters have the lights dim enough to see those and maintain that lighting
except during the feature.


Mike F.
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